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Gelo

Suggestion On Woe Rewarding System (1.0 And 2.0)

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First things first I would like to thank the GM staff for the overhaul of our new War Of Emperium Rewarding System. /lv

To start with, there's few or more things that I want to suggest/change on our rewarding system.

I understand that the main reason on having this system is to reward everyone who participates on the WOE. But with our current style of rewarding, we are forced into mostly 2 roles in playing woe — to support and attack/offense.

Why have I concluded these? It's because of what I have heard from Everade, "...you get more frags if you have achieve certain objectives like best supports, best killer etc...". With these I have realized that I can't do both things which is to be the best support and to be the best killer.

I'm mostly an SC user during WOE days and the most thing I do is disable(i.e. Masquerades, Manholes, etc..) rather than kill and I don't even know if Masquerades and Manholes are considered support skills since it doesn't affect my teammates in anyway and the skill is also labeled as offensive. Every after WOE I only get around like 20-30 even when I have played the 2-hour WOE time.

It's not only me who gets this 'role-ing' problem, Minstrels too, since they mainly uses Frost Joke to support the guild. I know a friend who only gets around the same frags with me even if he had played the 2-hour battle, there's this minstrel too, a guildie of mine who didn't even got anything.

Our WOE reward system also promotes 'solo-gaming' and is removing the essence of the word guild. Why? "I don't care about the guild as long as I gain fragments. I don't care about my team as long as I gain fragments. I don't care what guild am I as long as I gain fragments. I don't care whether we get a castle or not as long as I gain fragments."

With this, together with my friends, have come up with a suggestion on to restoring the true essence of what a guild really is and teamwork.

1. The rewarding systems on the roles of players remains the same with the same objectives(supporters, attackers and etc...)

2. The fragments that should be redeemed by each individual member(including the Guild Leader) will be accumulated and will only be redeemed by the GL at the end of the WOE. The GL will be the one responsible to distribute the fragments to his/her members depending on how a guild distributes their fragments, may it be equally divided to the members or etc.

3. Members of the guild can check the total fragments accumulated by the guild through Baldr. Members may not be able to see how much fragments they have contributed to the guild as to this would cause an uproar, this also prevents individual interest on fragments and promotes concerns of the whole guild itself. Transparency of the total accumulated also prevents the GL to abuse the fragments for his own good.

I would also like to suggest to add like a bonus fragments for the guild who gets castle. Like 1 castle is equivalent to 250 frags. This compensates the lower fragments the members receive since it will be divided to the members by the end of the WOE.

The total accumulated fragments now rely on the performance of the whole guild rather than individual performances.

With this kind of system, the Guild Leader now has the ultimate responsibility on the health of his guild and it's members. If the members are unsatisfied by the ruling of the leader, he/she may leave and find a better guild. Having a member leave your guild means you have a lower total accumulated fragments, which has a very negative effect of the guild and also has less manpower.

That's what we have brainstormed. We are not perfect, we may have overlooked on some issues/loopholes at some point and we apologize for that.

This is an open suggestion. We accept any comments, reactions, a better suggestion or anything you guys has to say.

Peace 'ya all! /gawi

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Accumulating is a good idea,and I do agree with your essence about teamwork,because I feel that ppl now more care with kill and kill,they dont care bout what happen with their guilmates,but I think there will be problem here,called "leecher", GL won't able to monitor the work of whole guildmates,so to be safe they will just shared the fragments equally,with this some people may try to dual and join different guild,claimed that they did something...

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Accumulating is a good idea,and I do agree with your essence about teamwork,because I feel that ppl now more care with kill and kill,they dont care bout what happen with their guilmates,but I think there will be problem here,called "leecher", GL won't able to monitor the work of whole guildmates,so to be safe they will just shared the fragments equally,with this some people may try to dual and join different guild,claimed that they did something...

I have foreseen this and it's sad people might abuse it. Nonetheless, it's still the GL's role to take care of his/her members.

Might as well make a list for the active members who joined before the WOE starts and during WOE.

I've also thought that late comers without valid alibis will get sanctioned/consequences but still it all depends on how the guild leader will manage his/her own guild. /no1

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/no1 yea this should be good. since all have alts and duals to be online during woe, its kidna unfair for those ppl who play hard def hard and dying most of the time and get a lil bit of frags. :/

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I can foresee a few things that may be an issue. For a guild leader to distribute fragments; the frags themselves will need to be tradable. This will spawn several other issues that I can't think of right now but the way Everade set this up I don't think frags being tradable is negotiable.

If the GL gets to take all the fragments; who's to say that he might not be a good leader and keep several for himself. Not only that but it will bring back the 'old system' where guild leader's mostly reap all of the benefits of god ingredients but the guild mates; specially the new recruits don't get anything. Not to mention it will be extremely difficult for the GL to keep track on who's dualing. Some members can simply lie and pretend they're different people even though they were dualing 3 chars at the time. In the midst of a heated WoE this will be difficult to track. If the GL isn't careful he'll end up rewarding one person with frags worth 3 persons or even reward a lazy member with more frags than he deserves because it's difficult to keep track.

If frags get pooled together (whether or not the sum can be seen by the members) then it might promote poor performances for those who are lazier than the rest. I certainly won't work super hard as I would if I know that all the tips for the day (I'm a waitress) are going to get pooled in with those other workers that are lazier and get split evenly by the end of the day. Yes, the thread starter said that the GL will be the one to decide who did the most work and who did lesser but that may cause resentment among members as to why they got less and the others got more. If it gets all split evenly then it's unfair for those that did more work than the rest.

There will also be distribution problems during WoE 2. In WoE 2 I have noticed that a bulk of people from different guilds all join together to form only 2 big guilds. If the GL does not like certain people from their rivaling WoE 1 guild; that has joined them for WoE 2; he can opt to reward them poorly.

The above issues however rely on the GL being a good or a bad GL and I think that's what mostly the suggestion relies heavily on. A side effect would be an added huge weight of responsibility for the GL. Not only that but an additional amount of time distributing these to members. Some members may go afk or the GL may have to leave for school/work immediately after WoE, etc. This adds maybe 30 or more minutes per post-WoE just for distribution work for the GL's and wait times for the members. Will the GL have time to track all these after every post-WoE?

I do like several suggestions by the thread starter though. Improve the rewards algorithm to benefit those that do frost jokers, and manholes, traps, etc. more than they are now. +1 to this

I dislike the 250 frags per castle idea. This will promote a massive amount of last minute breakers that aren't in their 'main' guild just so they get an instant 250 frags. A lone GX in a personal storage guild that luckily last-minute broke an unguarded castle immediately gets 250 frags?

One suggestion I would like to raise is to remove the frags earned cap or maybe significantly increase the cap. 50 to possibly 58 frags max earned for 2 hours of play? What if you did a ton of work but still get rewarded the same? I once played WoE 2 for only 50 minutes and I got rewarded 40 frags. So if I played the additional hour and ten minutes, I would have gained only 10 more frags? It may seem unfair for those weaker or the newer players at first because they won't gain as much as the 'elite' players but inversely it's unfair for the very active and very well equipped to earn only 50 max average. You can't expect doctors and lawyers to be at their best if they only get paid the same as the Burger King cashier right? -- this ad was sponsored by Burger King. Eat fresh.

Another suggestion is the 'objectives' part of the algorithm rewards. Please add frag rewards for those that rebuild guardian stones and barricades in WoE 2 (that can be gained surpassing the 50 frags limit). WoE 2 is a defensive game.

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I can foresee a few things that may be an issue. For a guild leader to distribute fragments; the frags themselves will need to be tradable. This will spawn several other issues that I can't think of right now but the way Everade set this up I don't think frags being tradable is negotiable.

If the GL gets to take all the fragments; who's to say that he might not be a good leader and keep several for himself. Not only that but it will bring back the 'old system' where guild leader's mostly reap all of the benefits of god ingredients but the guild mates; specially the new recruits don't get anything. Not to mention it will be extremely difficult for the GL to keep track on who's dualing. Some members can simply lie and pretend they're different people even though they were dualing 3 chars at the time. In the midst of a heated WoE this will be difficult to track. If the GL isn't careful he'll end up rewarding one person with frags worth 3 persons.

If frags get pooled together (whether or not the sum can be seen by the members) then it might promote poor performances for those who are lazier than the rest. I certainly won't work super hard as I would if I know that all the tips for the day (I'm a waitress) are going to get pooled in with those other workers that are lazier and get split evenly by the end of the day. Yes, the thread starter said that the GL will be the one to decide who did the most work and who did lesser but that may cause resentment among members as to why they got less and the others got more. If it gets all split evenly then it's unfair for those that did more work than the rest.

There will also be distribution problems during WoE 2. In WoE 2 I have noticed that a bulk of people from different guilds all join together to form only 2 big guilds. If the GL does not like certain people from their rivaling WoE 1 guild; that has joined them for WoE 2; he can opt to reward them poorly.

I've already foreseen this stuffs, should've added it here for more information. Hmm. Thank you so much for the feedback. /ic

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A big big no go on the main suggestion. /??

Main reasons have already been stated by Hersheys.

The idea behind our reward system is and always was, that every individual is not bound to the Guild Masters almighty power of having the ultimate decision, if you're going to be rewarded or not. /wink

Your idea would only make the rich Guild Leader even richer, as humanity in person is simply greedy.

Also, even if they might share their fragments, how is the guild leader supposed to reward his mates if he can't monitor what all his members did or how long they actually played? /ampf

The entire system has been designed to reward those who give their ultimate effort to help their guild being successful.

I've also implemented a handi-cap system to hold the gap between pro-gamers and newbies as small as possible.
This encourages newbies to enjoy WoE and the still rewards the pros with more fragments. /meow

Also making the fragments tradeable would destroy the economy in no time.
It would also encourage players to abuse the reward system and decrease the rarity of the entire shop incredients by tremendous bounds.

Now to your class "issue".

Yes not all skills are being tracked. /??
Our system is basically building up on the WoE statistics, so we're bound to quite some limitations when it comes to reward "everything"

That's why i've built the system to majorly reward players on main objectives you're playing anyways. /fsh

Spamming the same skill over and over and over and over again, will never reward you.
If you think that's what WoE is all about...?!

Yes it supports your guild in some way, but it requires 0 skills and isn't really fun to play.

This main objectives are, yet again, mainly objectives which supports your guild.
So no, the system should not encourage solo-players, it's aiming for the exact opposite.


Gaining 30~40 fragments is actually quite a lot and you should be proud of that. /ok
Hitting the 50 cap means something, just because you're playing 2 full hours will never ensure you're getting the max amount of fragments.

You're NEVER forced to play 2 different classes to reach 50 fragments. It's possible with every single class.

You're also NOT forced to play attack AND support role to reach 50 fragments.

A lot of the top players reaching 40+ kills do not reach 50 fragments. /ampf

Not because they've not done enough kills, but because they're not playing any other objectives rather than killing players only.
There are a lot of other objectives which are not bound to being supportive to teammates itself, but help achieving the main goal of attacking or defending a castle.

Guild Leaders still gain the treasure chest rewards and can still decide to share it with it's guild members.

It's no in our interest to change the core of WoE, it never was.

Guild Leaders are still playing the same role as before. They are supposed to contribute to their own community.

WoE 2.0
As we're currently working on a lot of other things... further development of the WoE reward system is on hold.
It's quite stable, and according to the latest statistics the rewards are pretty fair.

We may still tweak it here and there, but i'm currently really working on more great things to come.

Yet the system has not yet been improved for WoE 2.0, as it was basicaly not being played BEFORE the reward system update.

I didn't expect it to have such a big impact on WoE 2.0, so i was kinda surprised. /no1

But yes, it's on the to-do list to also reward the 2.0 core of the emperiums.
So that's coming up for sure. /slur

I may be repeating myself but:
- We do NOT want to reward everyone the same by creating a big pool of fragments.
- We want to reward those who make a difference.

- If you're going solo just to gain more fragments, you're doing it the wrong way. But we're not holding anyone back.
- If you want to play solo because you enjoy it, why not. The system still ensure that you're being rewarded for playing main objectives. So in the end it's STILL supportive for your guild.

About my phrase ...you get more frags if you have achieve certain objectives like best supports, best killer etc.. (not sure if i said it like this, whatever..)

You got this wrong. Like really wrong.

Our system does: ADDITIONALY ~ ON TOP OF THE ACTUAL REWARDS

Reward the TOP PLAYERS in their specific roles (for example the 5 top attacker, 5 top supporter and so on) /wink

For example if you've made the most kills from all players serverwide, you get 8 additional fragments ON TOP of your rewards.

That's the only way to reach more than 50fragments /wow
You're not supposed to be top attacker and top supporter.

It does also increase the chance of getting a rare chest. (only limited increasing the chance so take this with a grain of salt)
Reaching 50 fragments without the top bonus still gives the highest possible chance of gaining a rare chest.
(System states you as legendary) there's an actual meaning behind that /fsh

I will still consider some suggestions stated above. But no, we will not change the entire system because that's really not aiming for what we've tried to achieve at all.
I'm still further building the reward system on top of what we've to offer today.

So you can expect additional rare chests to come in near future.
There's also something very very special in the makings.

/wow

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Gelo, you certainly went kinda socialist there, aha.

I am a little bit indifferent towards the emperium fragments, I don't care much about costumes, and the new weapons, as I was told, aren't as good as the ones we have now (Maybe it's because the ones already playing have good weapons with 'end-tier' cards, so the remaining EQ is still good for newbies.

But the greedy problem could be easily settled, that is, if the community was to care and behave.

All of this is a matter of: Trust.

If your GL lied or tried to be selfish, you could just move from your guild.

Although if he lies, that's gonna be a bit harder, but like Gelo said, there would be a way to see the gathered frags anyways.

Also, for the breakers, we have alot of unique mono breaker guilds as it is, we've even had situations of being conquered in the last minute, so that would remain pretty much the same, with two people at LEAST, it's fairly easy to kill a BREAKER.

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A caring, behaving community full of trust does not exist.
No idea in which rainbow/unicorn worlds you guys are living in. /dum

I prefer to keep my feet on the ground.

I'm not saying we've a bad community, it's actually a great one as it is.
But talking about a community in terms of "if" or as if it was one single person is just naive or a very creative lie. /hmm

A community is being created out of individuals raised in different cultures all over the world - everyone has his/her own mind/thoughts and behaves as he wants to ~ within our boundaries of rules. And that's how it's supposed to be. /no1

So rather than me or the entire community starting to believe into something that doesn't exist, i rather have control over preventing scam attempts or greedy guild leaders while giving the ultimate freedom to each individual on his own.

---------------------
It's kinda funny to see that now, as you as the player got the choice over what you're going to achieve, are asking to take away your own freedom.
You're actualy asking me to chain yourself to bad experiences with bad Guild Leaders or scaming guild members.

And new players will have a really hard time finding guilds who're willing to share their cut.
While this will HIGHLY decrease trust in any new member (yet again, can be easily abused by creating new characters, joining a big guild just to get even more fragments)
The server would simply be flooded with spam accounts and increase scamming attempts by tremendous bounds.
---------------------

For me it sounds like lazy people (no offense) are asking for this so they can get their piece of pie while those who worked hard have to share their earnings while having to rely on a power "GL" which they can't control. /??

If there are solo-breakers destroying your tactics.
You still have the choice to kick them out of your guild.

/swt3

I know you guys have made up your thoughts on this, but just try to think this through.
Is it really what you want?
I doubt so.

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For one thing the main point of the suggestion is to enable the fragments to become tradable. I doubt Everade will budge on that one considering that he won't even budge with the suggestion of making BG items and badges becoming tradable again. Everade is right about the economy and the emp frags though; since it's new,, so I say keep the emp frags account bound. I can't say the same for the BG badges and items since those have been freely traded for around 6 years before this new 'trade prohibition' was implemented. Off-topic but I just wanted to say that lol

On the socialist remark,,, no offense but I feel like the rewards cap is slightly leaning to that. After a certain point no matter how much harder you work to achieve more objectives or to help your guildmates or slaughter enemies,, you will most likely end up with just 50 frags on average. Okay so maybe 58 if you played that hard but still those extra 8 fragments isn't truly that enticing when you consider the extra mile you had to put in. I can put in far less effort but can get 40 frags on average. Maybe increase the overall cap to 75 or 80 or something.

I do truly suggest to reconsider rewarding more frags to the Frost Jokers and the Stalkers though. It may seem silly to just spam a skill while standing in a corner somewhere but that spam is helping out your guildmates more than a single high-healing Bishop or a single high-damage Rune Knight would. That Frost Joker is essentially disabling 10 or more enemy players. That's a massive contribution. Manholers can also keep breakers at bay by delaying them and giving more time for back up to arrive. Masquerade also takes away Dragon Breath from being a threat and make magic classes unable to use spells. That's just as much a 'supportive' job as high-healing pitcher Genetics.

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Maybe increase the overall cap to 75 or 80 or something.

40-50... and even 58 seem enough for me. I understand the effort done by certain players during Woe, but you also have to understand you're working for premium items here. Getting every item out there represents a challenge! It keeps Woe Alive! And giving away tons of fragments won't help towards that.

That's just how I think.

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Increasing the cap will, yet again
decrease the value of the entire reward shop content. /??

Increasing the cap will also increase the gap between newbies and pros. /??

It's not just like we've created random rewards with random prices.
The entire project was like a huge math examn. We've taken our time to calculate everything through. /ok

50 fragments is supposed to be a lot.
You can be proud if you have reached 50.

You can even be more proud if you have reached 50 without playing 2 full hours.

However just because you've achieved that, does not mean that we shall increase the cap now so you can earn more.

This is end-game content, it's supposed to take time to get your hands on cool rewards.

You really need to understand:

The reward system is supposed to increase joy during WoE, but we've not designed the system so you only focus on fragments.
We've designed the system ON TOP of the main thing which is War of Emperium.

If you're not enjoying WoE at it's own and you just aim for the shop content.... then no one is forcing you to play 2 full hours if you're that good.

And i repeat:

We cannot reward Frost Jokers and Man Holers because it's not possible to track the usage of these skills. (the system is not based on using specific skills at all)

Yes it's supportive for your allies as you can hold back attackers, but it's neither fun nor taking any effort to hammer F1 over 2 full hours. (yes it's kinda silly even if it would be rewarding) But i understand your point.

Yet these classes have got a lot more skills and you're free to play other objectives as well.

Also taking these 3 skills into your consideration to be rewarded:
We really can't reward every single action, there are tons of other skills which do not contribute to your fragment reward. /sry

And making the fragments tradeable will:

- Encourage double clienting (abuse)

- Destroy the economy by setting a price tag (actual value) on fragments

- Decrease the "special achievement feel" on the entire shop content
- Decrease content value due players getting more fragments
- Decrease content value due opening up fragments within the market

- Decrease the will to play WoE

- Decrease player count in WoE (people can simply buy fragments on the market instead)

- and cause probably even more problems

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I definitely enjoy WoE on it's own. Hm there were a few things I didn't see that way until you pointed it out. Well thanks for input! I appreciate it /no1

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And making the fragments tradeable will:

- Encourage double clienting (abuse)

[it's already prevalent that people uses duals during WOE]

- Destroy the economy by setting a price tag (actual value) on fragments

[Everything has a price tag, and not of fragments by the way, but on the things that can be brought on fragments(the costumes/certs). Almost the same as buying the fragments by bulk.]

- Decrease the "special achievement feel" on the entire shop content

[i don't understand the 'achievement feel' when they only want is to get fragments and not the 'honor' on getting fragments]

- Decrease content value due players getting more fragments

- Decrease content value due opening up fragments within the market

- Decrease the will to play WoE

- Decrease player count in WoE (people can simply buy fragments on the market instead)

[Currently, not fragments, but the things bought with fragments, almost the same as buying the fragments]

- and cause probably even more problems

My main point is that classes who has more effort playing the front liners and initiators aren't getting as much as the efforts of the support classes like AB's hammering their F1's and F2's for party buffs at a certain corner. They're getting like 50 and above fragments. No offense tho to AB users. Xoxo~ /lv I can also simply dual 2 ABs and get 100+ frags.

Not only the supports are getting more fragments, also those Rangers that are effortlessly free shooting arrows at enemies. No offense to them too. Love love love. ~

We don't want a guild that only has 3-4 classes and we don't want a guild full of supports and just plainly attackers.

About the classes, specially SC, if we go full support(masquerades, manholes, etc...), we only get less than 30. How fair is that? /swt

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Genetics get lots of frags too. The easiest class to get frags from what I've heard. Well Everade said it's the limitation of the system. There's no way for the system to identify the masquerades and manholes and frost jokes to be included into the rewards algorithm it seems. He said 'it's not possible to track the usage of these skills'

I guess those who main SCs and Minstrels can just play a different class temporarily until they can gather enough emp frags to buy emp equips for their main char instead of gaining less frags playing their main.

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I'm aware that people are already dual clienting.
But due the fact that you're only getting reward for actual actions, brings you to the limits that you're most likely not able to reach max fragments on both within the 2 hour time frame.

Next to that, due the fact that fragments are account bound, you won't be able to increase your total earnings, as you're only earning on 2 individual fragment pots.

If the abuse however reaches a to high level, i may be forced to restrict dual clienting entirely.

(Yes i'm actually considering this since quite a while as it would help quite a lot to prevent a lot of different abusive behaviour)

Players may also get perm banned if they're simply abusing these kind of features, as it's not healthy for the servers economy.

Also, yes some items might be tradeable, but there are also restricted items.
If fragments become tradeable, that means that all restrictions would be lifted right away. (indirectly)

And if you "only" get 30 fragments, i repeat:
Try to play some other objectives as well. That's your own fault.

It's impossible to balance the system to 100% for each playstyle.
Next to that, 30 fragments are still a lot. (please read my other posts above)

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In my experience and in my present situation I have trust on my guild. (We were the ones who had no scandals about stuff, but im just gonna cover the rest of what could instigate a fight here with dirt.)

Even if people are different, humanity is bound to follow a few things that are universal, but hey, yeah, shitty GL is shitty GL.

But I guess my words weren't either put the way I wanted, or I just forgot and thrived to something I didn't mean to.

I am kinda happy about this system as it is, I mean, the system itself, doesn't really appeal to me.

I don't know if this sounds weird, but whenever I play, I play either Rune Knight for offense during WoE 1.0, and full support AB during 2.0, and im actually fine like that.

As for what gelo was referring to the breakers, not the ones inside the big guilds, ghost guilds who only have a breaker to break castles in the last minutes. (I'll just say two letters: TW)

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Yea I'm actually fine with the way the system is set up as it is but I can't help but feel bad for the smaller amount of frags the SCs and Minstrels get specially when I see how crucial their roles are when we get attacked. But it's a system limitation and I also more or less see from Everade's perspective on the emp frag cap at 50-58 now.

On the dual clienting thing, for the most part I just see people dualing a Genetic or a Soul Linker and they just alt+tab to them to get linked or FCP'd. I notice several just standing doing nothing when they get ecalled. I doubt they get a decent size of frags but they're not actually being abusive and even if they do, yea the frags are account bound so it's not like they can actually farm it. I know WoE is about team work and you should rely on your team mates that main a Genetic or a Linker or AB for buffs but sometimes it's just easier to alt+tab and buff yourself than to ask from someone, specially when you guys are under attack.

Please don't restrict dual clienting. XD

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Please, please, please don't restrict dual clienting. I use it all the time, most of the time just to mess around with my characters or test things...it would really hurt if you took that option away. D: /sob/sob/sob

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