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Julia Schmidt

Gopinich Card

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Item Updates

* Implemented new MVP card dropped by Gopinich: Gopinich Card [Allows offensive spells to hit with a chance of 45% regardless of protection. Doubles SP consumption. Compounded on shields.]

 

Just a suggestion. It would be nice if the Gopinich card is compounded to a *HG instead of shield since it will open the option for wielding [two-handed staves] or [one-hand + shield w/ other cards] (GRB and *Gopinich should not stack) and still wouldn't be too OP since it will remove 1 HG card (Kiel/HighWiz). [Emperium Two-handed staff] is really nice and may be a bit OP if combined with *Gopinich, but with the recent buffs and nerfs to magic, this will make WL's AoE skills a viable damage option instead of just SE. This will make Sorcs a bit harder to deal with too I guess. What do you think?

 

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+0

This would allow the magic class to wear BOTH  GTB and Gopinich Card.

This is the reason why GRB is slotted into a shield.

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1 hour ago, D e M o N said:

+0

This would allow the magic class to wear BOTH  GTB and Gopinich Card.

This is the reason why GRB is slotted into a shield.

True but removing 1 Kiel/HighWiz will significantly reduce their dps. I suggested this because it will give magic users the ability to still do damage against GTB users while being on GTB themselves. Other classes can do high damage outputs while having GTB equipped (including Rangers), while magic classes on the other hand have to choose between being offensive or defensive at a time. A slight tweak though should make it not OP like reducing its bypass chance to 40% or 35%.

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2 hours ago, D e M o N said:

+0

This would allow the magic class to wear BOTH  GTB and Gopinich Card.

This is the reason why GRB is slotted into a shield.

While this is true and you do have a very valid point which I agree with. I also agree with Julia, that GTB is essentially against magic users.

The burden of choice between getting offensive / defensive rests unto magic users. (GTB or GRB?)

While physical attackers are given the choice of which to guard more(GTB or Thara/etc?), without any setbacks to their offensive capabilities.

 

This change, will mostly affect magic vs magic as physical attackers have others ways around it.

the problems that I can foresee is that Gopinich (headgear) + GRB would be used against physical GTB users while Gopinich + GTB would be used against fellow magic users - which isn't healthy because it would be a necessity to magic users.

 

Though I understand that the GM team implemented this for newer players who have a hard time getting their hands on the GRB card. I believe that the problem is with the MVP itself and not the MVP card, if the MVP be tweaked so as it's not that hard to get for all players, there'll be no nead for a cheaper alternative.

 

I still stand with my +1 earlier but it would need to be rebalanced. Mainly a setback when Gopinich is worn with GTB or GRB.

Like a combo script that reduces the effects of both cards when Gopinich is worn with either of the cards. (e.x from 100% magic nullify, 50% magic nullify if worn with Gopinich and Gopinich's effect is also halved)

 

I think the main issues to tackle would be the viability of two handed staves and ease of access to GRB for newbies.

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10 hours ago, Julia Schmidt said:

True but removing 1 Kiel/HighWiz will significantly reduce their dps. I suggested this because it will give magic users the ability to still do damage against GTB users while being on GTB themselves. Other classes can do high damage outputs while having GTB equipped (including Rangers), while magic classes on the other hand have to choose between being offensive or defensive at a time. A slight tweak though should make it not OP like reducing its bypass chance to 40% or 35%.

 

10 hours ago, Gale Windscar said:

While this is true and you do have a very valid point which I agree with. I also agree with Julia, that GTB is essentially against magic users.

The burden of choice between getting offensive / defensive rests unto magic users. (GTB or GRB?)

While physical attackers are given the choice of which to guard more(GTB or Thara/etc?), without any setbacks to their offensive capabilities.

 

This change, will mostly affect magic vs magic as physical attackers have others ways around it.

the problems that I can foresee is that Gopinich (headgear) + GRB would be used against physical GTB users while Gopinich + GTB would be used against fellow magic users - which isn't healthy because it would be a necessity to magic users.

 

Though I understand that the GM team implemented this for newer players who have a hard time getting their hands on the GRB card. I believe that the problem is with the MVP itself and not the MVP card, if the MVP be tweaked so as it's not that hard to get for all players, there'll be no nead for a cheaper alternative.

 

I still stand with my +1 earlier but it would need to be rebalanced. Mainly a setback when Gopinich is worn with GTB or GRB.

Like a combo script that reduces the effects of both cards when Gopinich is worn with either of the cards. (e.x from 100% magic nullify, 50% magic nullify if worn with Gopinich and Gopinich's effect is also halved)

 

I think the main issues to tackle would be the viability of two handed staves and ease of access to GRB for newbies.

@Julia Schmidt @Gale Windscar

The fact that you have both magic immunity and magic penetration is (IMHO) overpowered. It's either you have magic immunity -or- magic penetration, never both.

If you are really keen on using 2 handed staffs, I would suggest that Gopinich Card's effect is only valid when put into a 2 handed staff.

 

The card description would be something like this:

Allow offensive spells to hit with a chance of 45% when compounded into a 2 handed staff.

 

 

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2 hours ago, D e M o N said:

 

@Julia Schmidt @Gale Windscar

The fact that you have both magic immunity and magic penetration is (IMHO) overpowered. It's either you have magic immunity -or- magic penetration, never both.

If you are really keen on using 2 handed staffs, I would suggest that Gopinich Card's effect is only valid when put into a 2 handed staff.

 

The card description would be something like this:

Allow offensive spells to hit with a chance of 45% when compounded into a 2 handed staff.

 

 

Having both magic penetration (MP) and magic immunity (MI) sure is OP considering a duel between 2 magic users, 1 having both MI and MP and the other only having MI but that is more or less always the case between 1v1. Take SC for example. SC will most of the time overpower his opponent due his skill tree alone but then that is just the case for 1v1. In the case of WoE or BG with many participants, it will give the magic users some protection against magic and debuffs (Ignorance, W.Imprison, etc.) for the price of having much lower DPS.

If having both MI and MP is OP then every magic user should have been using this item [Untitled.png.ce07680da20dfc05a799334025b63d53.png], but they dont because it has a very low bypass rate, severely crippling the user's DPS.

 

What you are suggesting is a good alternative, though it kinda limits it to just two-handed staff and practically just for WLs.

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1 hour ago, Julia Schmidt said:

Having both magic penetration (MP) and magic immunity (MI) sure is OP considering a duel between 2 magic users, 1 having both MI and MP and the other only having MI but that is more or less always the case between 1v1. Take SC for example. SC will most of the time overpower his opponent due its skill tree alone but then that is just the case for 1v1. In the case of WoE or BG with many participants, it will give the magic users some protection against magic and debuffs (Ignorance, W.Imprison) for the price of having much lower DPS.

If having both MI and MP is OP then every magic user should have been using this item [Untitled.png.ce07680da20dfc05a799334025b63d53.png], but they dont because of the very low rate.

 

What you are suggesting is a good alternative, though it kinda limits it to just two-handed staff and practically just for WLs.

I forgot about that headgear.

AFAIK, the +30 accuracy on that item does not work. and  I never tested the magic penetration on that item.

So, not sure if that item even works.

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1 hour ago, D e M o N said:

I forgot about that headgear.

AFAIK, the +30 accuracy on that item does not work. and  I never tested the magic penetration on that item.

So, not sure if that item even works.

Tested it just now. Did 3 sets of 10 SGs (1 set each per equip set [GRB, BG1st, GRB+BG1st]). Results are as follows: 

GRB              - 9, 9, 6, 7, 6, 7, 10, 10, 6, 8 (out of 10 hits per SG) = 78/100
BG1st           - 0, 3, 3, 2, 2, 1, 1, 3, 0, 2 (out of 10 hits per SG) = 17/100
GRB+BG1st - 10, 9, 6, 10, 10, 10, 10, 9, 10, 9 (out of 10 hits per SG) = 93/100

The item works just fine with AoE skills, but testing it with SE/Jupitel/single target skills gave a result of almost 1% hit rate when only using BG1st (error in script?) and 83% when using both. What surprised me is that the bypass effects of both items stack.

Going back to the topic, if ever this gets implemented, magic bypass effects should not stack and the higher rate of bypass should govern.

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1 hour ago, Julia Schmidt said:

Tested it just now. Did 3 sets of 10 SGs (1 set each per equip set [GRB, BG1st, GRB+BG1st]). Results are as follows: 

GRB              - 9, 9, 6, 7, 6, 7, 10, 10, 6, 8 (out of 10 hits per SG) = 78/100
BG1st           - 0, 3, 3, 2, 2, 1, 1, 3, 0, 2 (out of 10 hits per SG) = 17/100
GRB+BG1st - 10, 9, 6, 10, 10, 10, 10, 9, 10, 9 (out of 10 hits per SG) = 93/100

The item works just fine with AoE skills, but testing it with SE/Jupitel/single target skills gave a result of almost 1% hit rate when only using BG1st (error in script?) and 83% when using both. What surprised me is that the bypass effects of both items stack.

Going back to the topic, if ever this gets implemented, magic bypass effects should not stack and the higher rate of bypass should govern.

Seems like the GRB stacks with BG1stPlace.

Since you have tested it, maybe it's time to involve a GM to get their opinion on this matter.

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8 hours ago, D e M o N said:

 

@Julia Schmidt @Gale Windscar

The fact that you have both magic immunity and magic penetration is (IMHO) overpowered. It's either you have magic immunity -or- magic penetration, never both.

If you are really keen on using 2 handed staffs, I would suggest that Gopinich Card's effect is only valid when put into a 2 handed staff.

 

The card description would be something like this:

Allow offensive spells to hit with a chance of 45% when compounded into a 2 handed staff.

 

 

It is definitely OP, but as Julia stated only when 2 magic users are involved whereas 1 person do not have the Gopinich. Against physical users, it almost has no drastic effect - except for SCs (well being able to Masquerade + wear GTB is kinda unfair for magic users in a 1v1 setup imo)

 

But I agree that that's a very good suggestion. It would solve most of the issues stated. The only problem is that it would defeat (not entirely) the purpose that it should be a cheaper alternative to GTB and would be limited to use of WLs.

 

How about make it a double edged sword of some sort. With the effect that it gives __% penetration and -__% magic protection.

Checking the item scripts:

GTB :  ( 1 bonus bNoMagicDamage,100; bonus bUseSPrate,100; )

and GRB : ( 1 bonus bGTBPen,7500; )

 

for the Gopinich card, maybe something like setting bonus bNoMagicDamage, to X negative amount and bonus bGTBPen; to a X amount. -50& and 45% for example.

 

As for the issue of bGTBPen stacking, it could be resolved by adding a combo script of the Gopinich Card and GRB card that gives negative value of GTBPen (which should be the value of the lower one so that it cancels out)

 

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50 minutes ago, Gale Windscar said:

It is definitely OP, but as Julia stated only when 2 magic users are involved whereas 1 person do not have the Gopinich. Against physical users, it almost has no drastic effect - except for SCs (well being able to Masquerade + wear GTB is kinda unfair for magic users in a 1v1 setup imo)

 

But I agree that that's a very good suggestion. It would solve most of the issues stated. The only problem would defeat (not entirely) the purpose that it should be a cheaper alternative to GTB and would be limited to use of WLs.

 

How about make it a double edged sword of some sort. With the effect that it gives __% penetration and -__% magic protection.

Checking the item scripts:

GTB :  ( 1 bonus bNoMagicDamage,100; bonus bUseSPrate,100; )

and GRB : ( 1 bonus bGTBPen,7500; )

 

maybe something like setting bonus bNoMagicDamage, to X negative amount and bonus bGTBPen; to a X amount. -50& and 45% for example.

 

As for the issue of bGTBPen stacking, it could be resolved by adding a combo script of the Gopinich Card and GRB card that gives negative value of GTBPen (which should be the value of the lower one so that it cancels out)

 

This seems very agreeable to me but Im a bit confused about the bNoMagicDamage script. From what I read on rAthena, this script (1 bonus bNoMagicDamage,100) adds 100% reduction from magic damage. When wearing GTB and Gopinich, instead of receiving 100% magic damage at 50% chance, it will be 50% magic damage at 100% chance right? And if (1 bonus bNoMagicDamage,-50) is applied to a non-GTB wielding player, wouldn't the magic damage received become 150%? 

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6 minutes ago, Julia Schmidt said:

This seems very agreeable to me but Im a bit confused about the bNoMagicDamage script. From what I read on rAthena, this script (1 bonus bNoMagicDamage,100) adds 100% reduction from magic damage. When wearing GTB and Gopinich, instead of receiving 100% damage at 50% chance, it will be 50% damage at 100% chance right? And if (1 bonus bNoMagicDamage,-50) is applied to a non-GTB wielding player, wouldn't the damage received become 150%? 

 

I'm actually not sure, but checking rathena's github:

Quote

bonus bNoMagicDamage,n; Adds n% reduction to received magical effect (attack, healing, support spells are all blocked)

What I understand about this is it's % chance not damage per se. Which I made the assumption that negative values for this script wouldn't affect non GTB users (this I'm skeptical about because this might make spells that don't have 100% accuracy hit well)

Which leads me again to the item combo script option, wherein the drawback would only take effect if Gopinich is to be worn with GTB (less chance to block) and GRB (less penetration chance equal to Gopinich's value so that it seems that GRB overrides Gop)

 

 

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Phew, who would've thought adding a cheap alternative to GRB could spark such a discussion! Allow me to reply.

Firs off, yes, it was meant as a more acessible alternative to GRB (it spawns through BBs, it is part of the invasion script, it has a comparatively low spawn rate and it is not very hard to kill). My predecessors were wise to have GRB occupy the shield slot as the game has been originally designed in favor of Magic classes in terms of damage. In fact, I think magic users should always be a tad stronger (just think of FBH or Gioia) than physical classes but lack defensive skills. 

This is where Energy Coat comes into play! This skill reduces incoming damage by a considerable amount. I usually pride myself on being the imaginative type, but I cannot imagine how Thara Frog in conjunction with Energy Coat would affect our server, for that would be one of the results of making Gopinich occupy a head slot. I am willing to bet it would heavily upset the current balance (if you can call it that). 

I can tell you that Dorams, too, would benefit immeasurably from a free shield slot (tut, Dorams are part of a balance discussion for the first time, how fast they have grown *-*), ehem, as they already have an extraordinary amount of defensive skills. 

Having said this much, I am aware of the BG items (they use the official GTB penetration script, GRB's and Gopinich's are custom). However, their GTB penetration rate is indeed neglectable and hence has never been an issue before. 

I can understand you desire to wreak havoc with a 2-handed staff, since the problems mentioned by me do not apply here (you cannot equip a shield). Still, I suggest you approach the matter differently as the release of Gopinich Card had a specific intention. I am thinking of adding an additional option, something similar to what Demon mentioned, to a different card that is already occupying a head slot. Perhaps Fenrir, mm (it is coming, and that quite soon). Or we need another custom card.

 

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2 hours ago, Rayleigh said:

Phew, who would've thought adding a cheap alternative to GRB could spark such a discussion! Allow me to reply.

Firs off, yes, it was meant as a more acessible alternative to GRB (it spawns through BBs, it is part of the invasion script, it has a comparatively low spawn rate and it is not very hard to kill). My predecessors were wise to have GRB occupy the shield slot as the game has been originally designed in favor of Magic classes in terms of damage. In fact, I think magic users should always be a tad stronger (just think of FBH or Gioia) than physical classes but lack defensive skills. 

This is where Energy Coat comes into play! This skill reduces incoming damage by a considerable amount. I usually pride myself on being the imaginative type, but I cannot imagine how Thara Frog in conjunction with Energy Coat would affect our server, for that would be one of the results of making Gopinich occupy a head slot. I am willing to bet it would heavily upset the current balance (if you can call it that). 

I can tell you that Dorams, too, would benefit immeasurably from a free shield slot (tut, Dorams are part of a balance discussion for the first time, how fast they have grown *-*), ehem, as they already have an extraordinary amount of defensive skills. 

Having said this much, I am aware of the BG items (they use the official GTB penetration script, GRB's and Gopinich's are custom). However, their GTB penetration rate is indeed neglectable and hence has never been an issue before. 

I can understand you desire to wreak havoc with a 2-handed staff, since the problems mentioned by me do not apply here (you cannot equip a shield). Still, I suggest you approach the matter differently as the release of Gopinich Card had a specific intention. I am thinking of adding an additional option, something similar to what Demon mentioned, to a different card that is already occupying a head slot. Perhaps Fenrir, mm (it is coming, and that quite soon). Or we need another custom card.

 

If Gopinich card is slotted into 2 handed staffs only, it will allow players to use powerful 2 handed staffs while keeping gaming balanced.

And it would also give alternatives for the magic class. A powerful 2 handed staff or  GRB+1handed staff combo. /heh

 

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But then we would still have the problem of a missing cheap alternative to GRB which is Gopinich's main purpose (as expressed by me in my first post).

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12 hours ago, Rayleigh said:

But then we would still have the problem of a missing cheap alternative to GRB which is Gopinich's main purpose (as expressed by me in my first post).

Hm well there's all the other Moscovia monsters that drop no cards. What about giving one of these monsters a GRB-like effect, but at lower success rates for magic penetration? A 33% success rate sounds decent enough for newbies to get. They'll hit an enemy one-third of the time. It's not very effective but it's a stepping stone to make them not completely useless against GTB users, while they save up for a Gopinich or a GRB card. Like the Mavka monster. There's only 15 in mosk_dun03. But maybe add a negative effect, like it increases Variable cast time by 66%, slows SP regeneration by 90%, and slows walking speed by 33%. That way they won't settle for a Mavka card only too.

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12 hours ago, Rayleigh said:

But then we would still have the problem of a missing cheap alternative to GRB which is Gopinich's main purpose (as expressed by me in my first post).

 

13 hours ago, D e M o N said:

If Gopinich card is slotted into 2 handed staffs only, it will allow players to use powerful 2 handed staffs while keeping gaming balanced.

And it would also give alternatives for the magic class. A powerful 2 handed staff or  GRB+1handed staff combo. /heh

 

 

I like both of these arguments, is it possible to just make another custom MVP Card that gives a GRB effect w/ 2 handed staves only? May I suggest Queen Scaraba? or Boitata?

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I just had an idea about this, how about a card with a script that checks if a shield is equipped, and loses it's effect when a shield is worn.

Allow offensive spells to hit with a chance of X% (a lower chance like 30% maybe?), if no shield is equipped.

This would address the issue that it may be worn alongside GTB, and only benefit those that do not wear a shield (no GRB); which includes: double dagger magic ninja, auto-cast rangers, two-handed staves WL and other more. This would open to a lot of more diverse builds for all classes.

 

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