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Gale Windscar

HD Ores and refining in general.

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Hi, I just would like to point some things out in our current refining system. I think this has been brought up many times but here comes.

 

Just for context, I recently tried upgrading a Emperium Weapon (LVL4) and an Armor (Geffen Magic Robe).

 

Emperium Weapon (LVL4)

I didn't have a +9 weapon certificate so I decided to use a +8 Weapon Certificate and got a HD Oridecon Box from the vote shop.

Then I started refining, call me unlucky but hey it dropped to +6.

Now I can't use HD Ores anymore (equipment needs to be at least +7 to use HD Ori/Elu) and faced with four options: 1.) Use a normal Oridecon, 2.) Use Enriched Oridecon, 3.) Use a Safe Refine Ticket and try again. With these you can see that 1, 2, & 3 are not practical options, either I lose an equipment worth 500 Emperium Fragments or I waste a valuable resource that is very hard to get.

So I decide to use another +8 Weapon Certificate and get back to burning HD Oridecons. Heh, guess what, it dropped to +6 again. Faced with the same dilemma but this time I ran out of B Coupons so +8 Weapon Refine Ticket is no longer an option, I decide to use C Coupons to get +7 Weapon Tickets, and look it drops to +6 again, I do this with two more +7 Weapon Tickets only to fail again.

 

In all this, this is I ended up with: a +6 LVL 4 Weapon and -150 Vote Points (HD Ori Box), -200 B Coupons (+8 Ticket x2), -210 C Coupons (+7 Ticket x3). That's roughly 14 days of straight Voting and Daily Questing with nothing to show for it.

 

 

Geffen Magic Robe (Armor)

So to make the most out of this, you need it to be +12. So I decide to use a +9 Armor Refine Ticket and burned through my Blessed Armor Ores. I used up around 12 Ores to only have 2 successes, leaving my Armor at +11. That's months of reward logins and lucky invasion rewards down the drain.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Now I may just be unlucky, but hearing from other people, they do have a hard time refining too.

 

You can argue "why not just use a +9 Ticket", well I'm currently saving it up for the Emperium Armor Set that I plan on getting. But this also raises up another issue that I want to point out. + 9 Certificates and Blessed Ores has become almost a necessity because of the status of untradeablity of almost all our gears (Emp, BG, some PHQ).

 

Again, one of the arguments is that people may quit if they get these items quickly but the same could be told if it's too hard to get. But if you see on the other side, it affects newbies much more than oldies. As for my case, I have previous equipment to fall back to as I try to invest my time again to farm, but newbies would have nothing to fall back as it's the only thing they have - I do believe it widens the power-gap which the server is aiming to minimize instead of doing the opposite.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Now let me go into detail to the usage of HD ores.

 

I do think that HD Oridecon/Bradium/Elunium/Carnium are underwhelming in the shadow of Safe Refine Tickets and Blessed Ores.

 

HD Oridecon / Elunium

The problem that I have with these ores is that, why are they only usable from +7 - +9? Why not make it usable from +4 - +9/+10 like Enriched Eluniums?

I know we have a bit higher refine rate than official but I just want to reiterate for the nth time that we have a very different flow of equipments (hardly any flow because of untradeablity tbh).

It's very impractical to require to risk breaking with Enriched ores first or use a refine ticket just to use these ores when their main feature is to refine with minimal drawback. It's counter-intuitive imho.

 

HD Bradium / Carnium

As to how hard it is to get items to +10, it's not really worth to use over Blessed Ores. Especially Carniums as Armors are sooo hard to upgrade, and Bradiums can find their use for like Crimson Weapons etc.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

TL;DR

I want to suggest that HD Oridecon / Elunium to be usable starting from +4 instead of +7.

 

as for HD Elunium / Carnium; make it have a safety net and not go down below +10 and instead have a chance to get status on the weapon like DAMAGED: Can't be equipped, Can't be refined, Can be repaired with a cost (I'm thinking, Obisidan Fragments or Silvervine Fruits + Zenny)

 

Make Safe Refine Tickets tradeable (not the A,B,C Coupons but the Tickets themselves); these would help those who doesn't have time to do these DQs at a constant phase for their untradeable  equipment and would open the possibility of marketability for newbies (DQs are more popular with newbies). I mean, I don't see a problem with a person doing DQ with different accounts, it's not like he's getting them for free, that's roughty 2-3 hours of his/her time invested in the game to get the rightful rewards.)

 

These would make Blessed Ores be a luxury instead of a necessity.

 

It's been a long read but thank you for taking your time to read it.

Cheers.

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We are already getting FREE safe refine tickets, blessed ores, HD/enriched elu/ori, etc.

If you are lucky, you can get some blessed ores from automated invasion events.

And don't forget, we can earn safe refine tickets by participating in daily quest or battlegrounds.

GatheringRO refine rates are already slightly higher than official refine rates.

 

These refining items are account bound to prevent cheating.

 

 

And you want to be able to use HD/enriched  refining items at lower refine levels?

All I see here is a bitter unlucky player. Trust me, you are not the only one.

There are other players who have lost more, a lot more.

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22 minutes ago, D e M o N said:

We are already getting FREE safe refine tickets, blessed ores, HD/enriched elu/ori, etc.

 

Quote

If you are lucky, you can get some blessed ores from automated invasion events.

 

Quote

And don't forget, we can earn safe refine tickets by participating in daily quest or battlegrounds.

 

Yes, I have stated that I got all my items from DQs, Login Rewards, VPs, and Invasion Events.

 

Quote

GatheringRO refine rates are already slightly higher than official refine rates.

 

Yes, this has been mentioned a few times and I mentioned it above again. But then again, do they have untradeable Emperium/BG Sets/WB Items? Their ores are tradeable ours aren't. They have thousand of players versus our hundreds; meaning there's more supply of items to refine instead versus our limited supply.

 

I'm also not asking for an increase in the rates (thought I want to, I'm sure it'll be rescinded.); I'm merely asking a re-purposing of the special items used in  refining.

 

Quote

 

And you want to be able to use HD/enriched  refining items at lower refine levels?

All I see here is a bitter unlucky player. Trust me, you are not the only one.

There are other players who have lost more, a lot more.

 

Enriched can already be used starting +4, why not HD too?

Yes, I am bitter and unlucky, obviously and stated up above.

And yes, I'm not the only one, thank you for pointing that out.

I know others too that lost more - it's a trend that you lose way more than what you gain.

And that's why I am here to voice it out, again for the nth time.

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17 minutes ago, Gale Windscar said:

Yes, this has been mentioned a few times and I mentioned it above again. But then again, do they have untradeable Emperium/BG Sets/WB Items? Their ores are tradeable ours aren't. They have thousand of players versus our hundreds; meaning there's more supply of items to refine instead versus our limited supply.

 

 

 

Enriched can already be used starting +4, why not HD too.

Yes, I am bitter and unlucky, obviously and stated up above. And yes, I'm not the only one, I know others too that lost more - it's a trend that you lose way more than what you gain.

And that's why I am here to voice it out, again for the nth time.

 

No, but they do have account bound items too.On official servers, ores are cash shop only items.

On gRO, this means there is  a huge loss of potential donations to support the server.

We get our ores for free, making them account bound can be considered a fair trade-off.

 

 

They do different things, enriched ores can decrease the refine level of an item, HD ores do not. That is the trade-off.

Considering you got most of those refine items for free, you haven't lost much.

On top of that, RO is a MMORPG. It is part of the game.

 

So, why don't we just keep it official?

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35 minutes ago, D e M o N said:

 

No, but they do have account bound items too.On official servers, ores are cash shop only items.

On gRO, this means there is  a huge loss of potential donations to support the server.

We get our ores for free, making them account bound can be considered a fair trade-off.

 

They do have account bound items but the top tier ones are mostly tradeable.

Yes, they are free and a loss of potential donations.

In another light, re-purposing these ores to be more rewarding would attract more donations to get more of them - I for one, would gladly donate for them once in a while.

I'm also did not mention anything about wanting to make the ores tradeable, I just did mention it that to compare the refinement systems.

 

 

Quote

They do different things, enriched ores can decrease the refine level of an item, HD ores do not.

Considering you got most of those refine items for free, you haven't lost much.

On top of that, RO is a MMORPG. It is part of the game.

 

So, why don't we just keep it official?

 

Enriched Ores = Higher Success %

HD Ore = Normal % but no breakage

 

I'm simply suggesting to make HD Ores usable from +4, opening options on refining things like Emperium items instead of using Certs on everything.

 

I got them for free (financially speaking), but I still did earn most of them with time and effort.

 

Because we are in a different circumstance than official.

Do we keep every skill official? Do we keep every item official? No, we finely tune it to what our server needs.

Our refine system is custom as of now, I wouldn't want it to be kept like the official, that'd be a nightmare.

But still, I think it can be improved.

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24 minutes ago, Gale Windscar said:

 

They do have account bound items but the top tier ones are mostly tradeable.

Yes, they are free and a loss of potential donations.

In another light re-purposing these ores to be more rewarding would attract more donations to get more of them - I for one, would gladly donate for them once in a while.

 

 

 

Enriched Ores = Higher Success %

HD Ore = Normal % but no breakage

 

I'm simply suggesting to make HD Ores usable from +4, opening options on refining things like Emperium items instead of using Certs on everything.

 

I got them for free (financially speaking), but I still did earn most of them with time and effort.

 

Because we are in a different circumstance than official.

Do we keep every skill official? No, we finely tune it to what our server needs.

Our refine system is custom as of now, I wouldn't want it to be kept like the official, that'd be a nightmare.

But still, I think it can be improved.

 

What ever bro.. Good luck on getting this approved.

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My point of view is to increase the refine rate a bit more since GatheringRO Refinement System (Event) does rarely happen. Yes, It seems impossible to be approved but as you know this is the feedback and suggestion so anything goes. It doesn't matter whether it is approved or not but at least it is out there to be discussed. It takes time to get those certificates specially if you just play the game for 1-2 hours. Blessed ore and HD's are suppose to only help refine items and not to be the main thing that refines them all. Considering that there is still a Mechanic that can refine weapons to +10 but they can't use HD or Blessed but with luck they can somewhat still manage to produce some +10 despite the refine rate system we have. Also you have to consider people who do not go daily quest and wait for rewards it takes them a whole month to wait to get some random certificate. If you are a donator and got a good certificate you could keep on buying and try your luck but for non player it is really hard.

 

Stated above:

 

9 hours ago, Gale Windscar said:

Now I may just be unlucky, but hearing from other people, they do have a hard time refining too.

 

6 hours ago, D e M o N said:

And you want to be able to use HD/enriched  refining items at lower refine levels?

All I see here is a bitter unlucky player. Trust me, you are not the only one.

There are other players who have lost more, a lot more.

 

There is a problem on the system because people have lost a lot whether you are a donator or non donator just because of the refine rate system.

 

Suggestion:

Maybe, take of the Event column row on the refinement and put it onto the actual refinement system. Every little helps and 5% (on event) is a big difference already but as i said it rarely happens. I do agree on this suggestion and I just added a few eye opening for people what the problems are so please feel free to comment and share your opinion. Also it might be good to think about making some of those certificates be available not only on daily quest and daily rewards.

 

Side note:

If you ever do play MMORPG besides ragnarok you would know that even if you have the same equips as people other and max refine rates it all comes down to how good you are on that class. It's all about the skills and how you execute them properly.

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Increasing Refinement Chances
The refine chances has been an ongoing wish, and we've increased the chances already when the refinement system overhaul took place.

Fact:
- It does not help newcomers, it actually makes it worse.

>>> By increasing the chances, we force newcomers to gather even more resources to reach the same refinement level others have reached already.
Because the gap will simply be even higher than before.
You're stuck at +12 now? By increasing the chances you will probably be stuck at +13 or +14, so newcomers will simply have to get even higher.

 

If that's really what you want, then i can easily change that, for me, it's not really going to change anything.
But it's not going to help anyone truly unless your personal feeling of being more lucky at higher levels than what you've been used to before.


If you're interested into higher refine rates, go for the real deal:

Refinement Skill

+15% Refine success chance on all refinement levels for 3rd classes using skill based refinement

+10% Refine success chance on all refinement levels for 2nd classes using skill based refinement



HD Ores start at +4

If HD Ores may start at +4 already, you will also be able to fall even further down.

The overall refinement system has been kept official, with all the different variations available.
We have no plans on changing these HD bonus items right now.


 

Conclusion:

It is not supposed to be easy to reach anything close to +20. Not at all. Not on official, and not on gRO.

 

The refinement system itself is considered high risk ~ high reward.
The currently available tickets and other similiar ressources are conisdered a bonus on top of an existing risky system.

 

The only thing that's driving you crazy is the fact that you can go higher than what you've currently reached.
If you're fearing to lose your weapon or gear, then stop right there and don't go any further.
Otherwise get a second pair and start to risk something, rather than waiting for your next Blessed Ores.

 

Staying save is a luxus you've got a taste off.
In reality, the system has always been a risky game, and we do not have any plans on making drastic changes on it as of now.

 


The Future:

There's still a refinement Graphical User Interface in the pipeline which rAthena has not yet finished.
Once it's finished we're going to implement it, i will take another look on what further tweaks we could do.


I may change some of your mentioned gaps to reduce the feel of *needing* a save ticket.
But we don't have any plans just yet, and rAthena has not continued to work on the GUI for quite some time now.

 

 

Sidenote:

Truly official kRO does not offer save refine tickets nor blessed ores or similiar special refiners.
That's custom for iRO only.

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The current refinement system that we're having is fine already, imo. With enough effort and luck, you can get any refined gears that you wanted.

 

Also @Everade I may have missed some readings but I have a question:

Has +11 refine ticket already implemented too, because it's seen at the option when we're refining using tickets. Just curious

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40 minutes ago, Everade said:

Increasing Refinement Chances
You're stuck at +12 now? By increasing the chances you will probably be stuck at +13 or +14, so newcomers will simply have to get even higher.

 

If that's really what you want, then i can easily change that, for me, it's not really going to change anything.
But it's not going to help anyone truly unless your personal feeling of being more lucky at higher levels than what you've been used to before.

 

 

If the problem is having other players reach overupgrades faster. Then why not tweak the lower brackets which everyone can easily access without touching the overupgrade rates?

But hey this is another thing as to what I was pointing out so I'll leave it here.

 

40 minutes ago, Everade said:

HD Ores start at +4

If HD Ores may start at +4 already, you will also be able to fall even further down.

The overall refinement system has been kept official, with all the different variations available.
We have no plans on changing these HD bonus items right now.

 

I don't see the problem in dipping below +4? What I was pointing out was that how imo that it's counter-intuitive to use/risk using Enriched and/or Safety Tickets just to be able to use these HD ores with a very narrow window.

 

45 minutes ago, Everade said:

Conclusion:

It is not supposed to be easy to reach anything close to +20. Not at all. Not on official, and not on gRO.

 

The refinement system itself is considered high risk ~ high reward.
The currently available tickets and other similiar ressources are conisdered a bonus on top of an existing risky system.

 

The only thing that's driving you crazy is the fact that you can go higher than what you've currently reached.
If you're fearing to lose your weapon or gear, then stop right there and don't go any further.
Otherwise get a second pair and start to risk something, rather than waiting for your next Blessed Ores.

 

Staying save is a luxus you've got a taste off.
In reality, the system has always been a risky game, and we do not have any plans on making drastic changes on it as of now.

 

I never said i would like to get things to +20.

 

I would describe more as very high risk - high reward. I mentioned this a few times, the rewards doesn't really justify the risk that's why everyone is forced to use Safe Refine Tickets.

They were planned to be a bonus on top of an existing system, but I assure you they do not work as a "bonus", They are a necessity at the current state of things. 

 

I do not wish to go to the highest, I merely want to go to the point as to where the item would show it's potential. +12 on the Geffen Robe and +10 on the Weapon. I'm not yearning for anything fancy like a +15 Weapon.

Oh believe me, if it was easy to get a second pair, I would gladly risk it. But no, in this case an Emperium Weapon (500 frags; if you average 50 frags per woe, it would take you 10 WoEs and the fastest that would talke is 2.5 weeks). It's not really that productive - it's not that easy as you say it is.

 

57 minutes ago, Everade said:

Sidenote:

Truly official kRO does not offer save refine tickets nor blessed ores or similiar special refiners.
That's custom for iRO only.

 

Again, this is because they have a larger population than us and they do not have things like Emperium/BG sets.

This is why I don't really like to compare - different servers, different circumstances

Heck, i daresay, I would've prefer for Emp/BG sets to not exist alongside the bonus items like ores and tickets.

That'd make people farm more instances for top tier gears and revitalize the economy for tradeable items once more.

But I guess that's a long shot

 

55 minutes ago, Everade said:

The Future:

There's still a refinement Graphical User Interface in the pipeline which rAthena has not yet finished.
Once it's finished we're going to implement it, i will take another look on what further tweaks we could do.


I may change some of your mentioned gaps to reduce the feel of *needing* a save ticket.
But we don't have any plans just yet, and rAthena has not continued to work on the GUI for quite some time now.

 

 

I am looking forward to what changes this might bring and thank you for reading my post.

 

At least I've tried, this is just me voicing out an issue that not only I have experienced.

 

Thank you and best regards.

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i must say i love our refine system sometimes its very frustrating but this is the right moment to stop and try it at the next day 🙂 

sometimes i waste so many ore brandis there ....but still that gambling 🙂 no risk no fun :_))

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18 hours ago, Everade said:

Increasing Refinement Chances
The refine chances has been an ongoing wish, and we've increased the chances already when the refinement system overhaul took place.

Fact:
- It does not help newcomers, it actually makes it worse.

>>> By increasing the chances, we force newcomers to gather even more resources to reach the same refinement level others have reached already.
Because the gap will simply be even higher than before.
You're stuck at +12 now? By increasing the chances you will probably be stuck at +13 or +14, so newcomers will simply have to get even higher.

 

If that's really what you want, then i can easily change that, for me, it's not really going to change anything.
But it's not going to help anyone truly unless your personal feeling of being more lucky at higher levels than what you've been used to before.


If you're interested into higher refine rates, go for the real deal:

Refinement Skill

+15% Refine success chance on all refinement levels for 3rd classes using skill based refinement

+10% Refine success chance on all refinement levels for 2nd classes using skill based refinement

 

We would always have newbies and we would always have old players. It cannot be denied that players who are in the server for more than 3 months might already have geared up compared to newbies who just started. Everyone starts being a newbie and work their way up to get good gears.

 

There is always a trial and error when it comes to balancing things and it can take time. Being knowledgeable of ragnarok is a good thing because you can always tweak stuff and improve things but then again you need players to test them for themselves because they are the one who uses those features.

 

18 hours ago, Everade said:

HD Ores start at +4

If HD Ores may start at +4 already, you will also be able to fall even further down.

The overall refinement system has been kept official, with all the different variations available.
We have no plans on changing these HD bonus items right now.

 

It could be the users risk on trying to refine their item further. If it fails then they can always go back to +4 without a problem because of the safety limits. instead of going from +8 or +9 to +6 and then HD ores cannot be used. It is because the HD Ores and Blessed Ores are the main thing like I said before. Now that people are trying to upgrade items people rely on those HD's. Normal elunium and oridecon can only go until safe limits and their already useless if you are upgrading a good gear. Official files are there as a guide and as base to the server but when a private server like ourselves use it we can always tweak it depending on what the server needs.

 

18 hours ago, Everade said:

Conclusion:

It is not supposed to be easy to reach anything close to +20. Not at all. Not on official, and not on gRO.

 

The refinement system itself is considered high risk ~ high reward.
The currently available tickets and other similiar ressources are conisdered a bonus on top of an existing risky system.

 

The only thing that's driving you crazy is the fact that you can go higher than what you've currently reached.
If you're fearing to lose your weapon or gear, then stop right there and don't go any further.
Otherwise get a second pair and start to risk something, rather than waiting for your next Blessed Ores.

 

Staying save is a luxus you've got a taste off.
In reality, the system has always been a risky game, and we do not have any plans on making drastic changes on it as of now.

 

It isn't about people getting close to +20 because people are already happy with their +10 items because of the refinement system. +11 and so on are already a blessing and a very very good upgrade.

 

A second pair of something like an end gear is not easy to get for some people and their busy life but for some it can just take days or a weeks. It is a risky game but people do like to gamble because it could be that they might end up having a better gear. Drastic change isn't really the solution but more like a small change can really help make a difference. /no1 

 

Side note:

Refinement has been brought up and talked about in-game most of the time because there is a real issue and the players who play our server aren’t happy. I’m not too sure if people would have the courage to post something like this on forum since talking about this refinements and such always leads to rejection so no one bothers to even try.

 

 

@Gale Windscar thanks for the effort!

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Just pray before you refine things. =D sometimes it works BIGTIME ❤️

 

its a matter how lucky you are on that time/day, u can get b.ores safe refine anyway, FOR FREE! or buy them using emp fragments / or do daily quest  

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@Everade I just want to bring this up, this is how the refinement using these ores in iRO. (it's like these even when almost all of their top tier equips are tradeable and unlike Emp/BG sets when it comes to acquiring them)

 

Source: iRO Wiki

 

image.thumb.png.a8bad751b7225ce13c7832a66aa7f123.png

 

 

image.thumb.png.8043dfd8e70110ad2855fb43907c91d2.png

 

The have a higher population with relatively easier to get gears (tons of supply because of population).

But it's not bringing them down? It's not like our gears would be that overpowered because our gears mostly gets toned down (e.g. Crimson Weapons)

 

I mean, I'm simply asking for a re-purposing of these ores. Because our ores at their current state are underwhelming; in my very honest opinion.

I am not asking to remove the risk that the refinement system has; I just want a change on how they can be used to change the state of how Blessed Ores and Safe Refine Tickets being a necessity.

 

That's the end of it, I've said everything I want to bring up.

I'll just be hoping for the best.

 

Thank you.

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